I completely agree with you! Here's my question (and it may seem stupid), how do you find out about the local stuff you have to vote on. I pretty much ignore all the news and stuff this time of year. It just makes me mad. Do you know of a site that will tell you what the local people we will be voting for believe?

Dan as always... very insightful and always hilarious. I have to agree with you 100%. I’m so confused with Christians right now. I don’t want to jump the gun on some of the reasons why I believe a lot of minorities are voting for Obama. I have family members and friends that are voting for this guy and I'm so frustrated that I can't think of what to say to these people. These are Christian friends and family. What is going on people? I don't care if you didn't like Bush, but do not allow an ultra liberal so called Christian (Obama) into office. I'm tired of the reasons why you think McCain is Bush and why we can't trust another Republican into office...what is going on? It scares me to think that even within the church there is confusion on what we should believe in. Abortion is bad and we all know this. I'm tired of people saying that it is a woman’s right to choose. She chose when she had sex. What happens is she raped? Give the baby up for adoption. What happens if the birth causes one of them to die? We do not make that choice. Why do Christians die all the time? That’s why we need to always have faith in God. That’s the problem with this society; we want to go through life with no consequences. We want to do whatever we want and nothing can happen and if it does we'll take care of it instead of God. A friend of mine said what happened to Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Whets the first thing in that sentence...Life. We are taking that life away with out giving it a chance. My brother was mentioning that he knew a few people who had an abortion and all of them regretted it in the end. Obama said on the platform that why should I punish my child with a baby? That’s ridiculous and now we are playing God...Christians, wakes up!! This is outrageous and yet there will be thousands of Christians helping this man into office. Please, save you’re "oh he's Christian and he doesn’t believe in it, but he believes in our rights." That is a bunch of crap. Don't even get me started on the gay marriage thing. Come on people. If you are considering voting for Obama, please remember what the Word says and never what the world says. We live by the Words standards, not the worlds. By the way, did you know that Obama voted against the infant protection Act? The Act means if the baby survives the abortion, it protects the baby. If this man is calling himself a Christian he needs to sit down and have a conversation with God, because He would tell him that this all wrong. People right now are driven by fear, fear of the economy, fear of the war and fear of what’s going to happen to them personally. Who is our provider, our protector and our guidance? If you really feel that you need to vote for Obama because of any of these reasons you need to think twice on what you truly believe in. God has died for you, so you can turn around and help pervert everything he has made Holy? People, this is not a race issue, I have nothing against African Americans. I would love an African American in office, if he really believed in Gods word and followed it, but this is about morality and where we stand as Christians. Obama may seem like he has a good heart, but I can see right through that because the mans a people pleaser and has thousands and maybe millions of Christians convinced that he is going to be this savior, when we already have one, Christ. Think of what God wants for us.

Lisa -

GREAT QUESTION about finding out "what do the local politicians believe in?" The problem is, I don't have an answer for you. I have been equally frustrated over that for the past 10 years. Heck, I get stuff in the mail concerning a candidate, and it doesn't say ANYWHERE ON THE FLYER IF THEY ARE A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN!!! I think they do that on purpose. I got a flyer for one of the local yocals running for something or other and the whole thing was about his "GREAT STANDING AS AN NRA MEMBER".. are you kidding me???!!!!! what's up with that???!!!!! (you sense my frustration)....

Adam-

Thanks for your post! I knew this was going to stir some things up. I can see you share my frustration. All of a sudden Christians are casting aside their beliefs (what they SAY they believe anyway) for the sake of politics. Now all of a sudden we're looking for the government to run our lives and provide for us rather than the Kingdom of God. Have I missed something???!!!!!

I completely understand folks' frustration with the government and Mr Bush over the past few years. But do you know what? He's had a LOT OF HELP. If folks haven't noticed, the DEMOCRATS have controlled the House and Senate over the past two years (you know, the guys that MAKE the laws).. hmmmmm...this whole economy issue is GLOBAL- wake up folks!! Blame Bush or the Republicans all you want. I'm not saying they are perfect, either. I hear folks talking about the gas prices... it's $6.00 A GALLON IN JAPAN!!! This crisis is GLOBAL.. God said it would come, but we still need to vote our conscience and support our Biblical beliefs. Whoever gets into office is going to have one HECK of a mess on their hands, whoever it is... I'm not fooled by believing Obama has all the answers and he's going to snap his fingers and solve everything...

I have to throw something in here - why does who a person votes for cast any doubt about their Christianity? Because of abortion? Has it occurred to any one that abortion is currently a legal reality and we have a Republican in the White House? He nominated 2 supreme court justices and guess what... Still legal. Roe v. Wade decided this YEARS ago. No president is going to do anything to affect that issue. Sorry Dobson, it's true. Gay marriage? Ridiculous. 8 years of Bush and it has gained more ground in US society then ever before. More states have made their own gay marriage acceptance laws since the Christians have started talking about it. I'd say the strategy is totally backfiring.

I have friends that I know, beyond any doubt, follow Jesus and listen to his voice and they are also very much supporters of Obama. Is it just too scary for us to imagine that God is not an American? America is not his only, nor is it his primary concern. I hate to be so objectionable but I'm just not on board with the idea that God sits on one side or another of any political debate.

Christianity was born in a political environment hostile to what is currently called "Christian morality," yet God called that the perfect time. Maybe his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts. Jesus never made a single declaration against the political system of his day. Neither did any of his apostles. They all submitted to it to the point of martyrdom if necessary.

My beef with all of this is that we are called to exhibit the wisdom of God. God's wisdom is so far beyond pro choice or pro life, McCain or Obama. We should be in search of the Transcendent - not the "right" or the "wrong." Rhetoric on either side of a political issue in the name of God is like telling half the population, "God does not approve of you." I hate the idea of putting these unnecessary walls in front of people. Do we really believe that person who calls themselves politically pro choice can't be a follower of Jesus? Really? I'm not willing to even hint at that.

Sorry - but felt I had to lodge my very respectful dissent to the sentiments above :-)

Scott

Thanks for your post! Sorry to lag in my repsonse, but I just got back from the hospital. It seems they didn't get it all while I was there, I'm STILL pulling pieces of shrapnel out from that last grenade blast... :-)

I never *intended to* cast doubt about someone's Chrisianity, my issue is with Christians supporting folks who are directly opposed to the things we believe in as followers of Christ. It especiallly unnerves me when folks PORTRAY and TELL folks they ARE a believer in Christ and then their actions reflect the direct opposite, and we support them anyways. Again, serious character flaw.

You are absolutely right in that the government is not going to solve our problems - I guess my main issue is with voting your conscience. Yes abortion is legal, but am I going to support someone who is in favor of it (whether they can change it or not)? No. Yes gay marriage is on the rise, but am I going to support someone in favor of it? No. Heck, prostitution is legal in parts of Nevada - let's vote for someone that wants to make it legal everywhere else... Do you see what I'm getting at?

We had serious issues with Mr Clinton (whether you agree or not) who said that a person's private life has no effect on their ability to perform their job (namely leading our country)... no, there's no tie there at all - do what you want, take your pants off and run around the White House, and no, that won't influence the decisions you make at all... c'mon.

So the biggest beef that I have with this whole election is Obama aligning himself with the Christian faith when it’s convenient: aka people pleasing. Now of course God is neither Democrat nor Republican, American nor French (random but I had to throw something in there). But, BUT I will say this: If I have to choose between the morality of providing cheaper health care (there are other things we should be doing to regulate the health care system than government funding healthcare) and preventing abortion rights from advancing, I’m going to choose preventing abortion rights from advancing. This is a no brainer. Now we could say, “well, it’s hopeless. Abortion already became legal in 1960 whatever. What are we really going to do to stop it?”(while we passively roll over and wave our white flag in defeat) Well, let me bring this point to the light: What if we had that passive stance with slavery? Sure it was legal and at one time the majority of the nation felt (wow, are feelings deceiving) that it was a (white) man’s right to own slaves. (What would you say about that Mr. Obama?) Hmmm…I bet not many people would use that argument for that issue. Nobody today would even ever think it was ok to use this argument for slavery, neither do I. So why does it have to be different for abortion? Also, would we ever say that it was ok for a man to rape his wife? Not now, but it wasn’t until the 1980s that it was actually illegal for a husband to rape his wife (this actually happens). As a woman, I am grateful that someone fought for this to be illegal. So maybe I would be voting for Obama, if he wasn’t wanting to advance Planned Parenthood, abortion rights, and gay marriage (and of course assuming he had a much more effective health care plan). The word advance is the word we should be worried about. I had heard a couple of years ago that there was this Christian African American Democrat man that was going to run for office. And although he didn’t believe in abortion or gay marriage personally (which is the people pleasing way of actually saying you are pro-choice, which is the nice way of saying you are actually for abortion), he was willing to support the law. I thought, well ok I can somewhat understand so let’s see what he has to say. But, BUT in the last couple of months it has come out that he wants to advance these issues, which is totally different than not making any changes to it either way. Also, no one wants to talk about the fact that there’s this whole thing going on with allowing babies that have survived abortions (attempted murder) to die without medical attention. I predict that this and choosing whether we allow our babies to die based on possible illness or disabilities will snowball unless we do something. This is not a Democrat or Republican issue, it’s a moral issue. It is sad to me that we the people would be settling for this on the Republican or Democrat side. Either way it’s wrong. It’s awesome that we finally have a minority running for office, but at the cost of lives of the unborn? I will not have their blood on my hands. I would be saying the same thing about a Republican candidate that voted to support Planned Parenthood more than 90% time. This is an organization which openly attacks Christianity and says unborn babies are not really a separate life from their mothers or babies at all until the moment they have air in their lungs, which includes the vicious partial birth abortion. By the way, Planned Parenthood is also funded by the government. We should demand more from our leaders of our country. The US may not be the only country God loves, but I could say the same about my family. That doesn’t mean I will raise my family to live the way they want because we are not the only family God cares for. As for me and my house and country, we will serve the Lord. And I make no apologies.

Aneece,

You made a statement that (to me) may be the most crucial issue concerning this whole argument:
"The word advance is the word we should be worried about."

This candidate (who has not only CLEARLY mis-represented who he is) is not only against the values that Christians should hold dear (when he SAYS he doensn't SUPPORT them), but he is out to further and strengthen their position in our society.

You are also dead on when you say this is not a Democratic or Republican issue, but a MORAL issue. Maybe the folks that are in office can't stop these things, but that doesn't mean we have to SUPPORT them. And again, for Chrisians to vote for someone that has more gray areas than a category 5 hurricane, and just "brush those things under the rug" is morally irresponsible. Again, I'm not questioning people's Chrisianity, I'm questioning their reasoning and ethics. I just don't understand it.

Great post, Aneece. Look deep into the back of your screen, and you'll see me standing and applauding you.

Morality does not equal God. God is no more in charge and his kingdom is not any more established because we have an anti-abortion president (or whatever issue you want to pick out). That's my point. It's not up to us to decide which "side" God is on, and then vote that way.

He isn't on either side. He is on the side of His kingdom. His kingdom is transcendent. It goes forward no matter who gets elected. We need to be more concerned about that then we are being "right" about the guy that should be in office. I don't care how this turns out today - God didn't lose an election.

I'm afraid that the message of the very 1 Samuel passage quoted in the post is being snowed under a storm of right-wing rhetoric and that always gets my Irish up. The point God was making to Samuel was that HAVING A KING AT ALL was a contradiction of His desire to lead the people. Do you realize that applies to the "evil King Saul" (hand picked by God, by the way) as it does the King after God's own heart, David? God is not on either side. He's not less God when the guy we don't like gets elected and more God when the guy we like does.

We're not "losing" because planned parenthood gets advanced and winning if it doesn't. I don't want women having abortions either (obvious, I hope) but legislating it doesn't cure the issues at the heart of those decisions. And I believe and have experienced that if I choose to take a "God is a Republican" rhetoric to the issue of abortion, I never get even the hint of a chance to be involved and seen as a credible resource to help a woman dealing with those realities. I don't want to be "right;" I want to be useful to God. I'm not trying to stand up for him as though he's being bullied. I'm trying to be a light in the darkness. I want to be close to people who think and vote differently than me. I can't do that by questioning their morality, spirituality and theology because they vote a different way than I do. Does that make sense?

I'm not going to draw lines in my life and tell God - you can't use me to speak wisdom, peace, mercy and redemption to these people because I'm going to drive them away from me as hard and as fast as I can. Whether it is actually morally superior to be pro life or not is not the issue - the issue is can I still be His ambassador or am I hijacking his message with one of my own making?

So the important question is really, "How are my attitudes and my words about these issues affecting the way God's kingdom can be advanced through my life to include other people?" Our responsibility is to put off this earthly tent and be clothed from above. We are meant to be Christ's ambassadors as though Jesus were here in the flesh pleading with people to be reconciled to God.

Pray, fast, take it seriously and then vote for who you feel led to vote for. Just don't tell me that the people who prayed, fasted, and then voted for the other guy aren't listening to and following of Jesus. I know differently. The kingdom of God is not limited to our political system or our ideals unless we allow it to be... that's what I'm trying not to do.

Yes, I totally agree that we have to be careful with how we view politics. Following Christ and loving people is a higher call. I don't believe in being one party just because. Being politically responsible is just a small part of walking out our Christian faith. Out of all the issues that I am passionate about (or against), abortion tops the list. My heart breaks for the aborted babies and the potential mothers that have no idea what they are actually doing. These sins are the ones that blantantly destroy the very basics God has created and destroy families (which I have witnessed).As harsh as I am with these issues when I am talking with my fellow Christians (as we are to hold our brothers and sisters accountable and not nonbelievers), I believe in being much more gentle and compassionate when dealing with nonbelievers. I must admit it is hard very hard to be a 27 year old female in the social service field that is also a Christian. Do you realize how people look at me when I say Adam and I didn't live together before marriage and that I respect him as my authority and that I am not for all of the women's rights (only abortion). You would think I had a crazy eye like those fair stuffed animals that you win. And I get tired of all the abortion and gay agenda that is crammed down my throat in my social service field and in my culture of 20 somethings. But when I open my mouth about even saying Merry Christmas, I am insensitive and doing too much preaching about my beliefs, according to them. It just doesn't make sense. I'm tired of being silent. But I will still choose love in Truth.

I've read and re-read these blog posts and I may be missing the point here, but I'm going to say what I wanted to say anyway. I’ve grown so weary of this sideline, passive aggressive referee Christianity on all levels. The whole "judging Christian" vs the "pc Christian" crap is annoying when the bottom line is this: Right is right and wrong is wrong and if we can do what we can to help out with what's right, then let's do it. What's the problem here, people? Am I missing something? Let’s talk about one of the issues: abortion. Sure, the decision for its legalization may not have been overturned yet, but why can't we keep picking people who will fight for it to be overturned? If it weren’t for Presidents like George W. Bush, I wouldn't have had a job teaching teens how to be sexually responsible and make good choices. I have been so blessed by the testimonials of teens who tell me that they are going to change their lifestyles for the better because of what they've learned. You think someone like Obama is going to do that? No! He’ll most likely pull the funding for that. I realize that W. hasn’t been the best President, but he has done some good on the side of basic morals (it‘s just never talked about in the mainstream media). Yes, God sits on the throne (not as a demo or repub), but don’t we still have a responsibility to choose someone who can help make a difference? I realize that we aren't going to change the heart of the issue, only God can do that, but what, for example, would we do with a criminal when he or she commits a crime? We imprison him or her. It doesn’t change the heart of the issue in their life, but it keeps our streets a little safer. We have to do what we can to keep that sucker off the street! We can pray for their salvation and that they will make different choices, but the rest is up to God. For me it's not about whether or not God is a democrat or a republican. For me it's what can I do to put someone in government that can help further the cause for what’s right? If a democrat put those things first, I’d vote for them. It’s not really that complex. Do I expect my choice of candidate to be perfect? Of course I don’t. He may never change abortion, but who's to say he won't take steps in that direction while we pray that the heart of the issue gets dealt with? We are blessed to live in a country that allows us to have the option to pick someone who sides for right...at least for now. I think I can still hold to my convictions on issues such as abortion and still have a loving approach to people about truth without being in danger of losing my credibility, but I cannot separate truth from love. Overall, I am more concerned with the disregard for morals by Christians because they want "economic stability" but they'll spout scripture like Matt 6:33 and not live by it. As for me personally, I am disappointed with the hearts and minds of Christian people during this election, who many I believe out of fear, ignorance, or arrogance, made their decisions. I’d like to think my own intentions and actions are for the right of the matter and not the “right” of the matter. You dig what I’m sayin’? I don’t think that if a Christian votes for “the other guy” he or she isn’t a follower of Jesus, but knowing what that candidate stands for and still voting for that person makes me wonder if they are following Jesus in that particular decision. I just find it hard to believe God would contradict Himself in that manner unless God is using somehow to usher in the Antichrist or something. If I’m missing the point, please point me in the right direction; oh and please forgive my lack of eloquence, that’s not what I’m going for.

Prop 8 passed in California. Praise God for progress.

Check that...it's on the verge of passing...my bad. The radio told me yes, but yahoo says not yet. But hey the Ban-gay-marriage amendments were approved in Arizona and Florida. More progress!

Jeremias-

"As for me personally, I am disappointed with the hearts and minds of Christian people during this election, who many I believe out of fear, ignorance, or arrogance, made their decisions."

"You dig what I’m sayin’?"

I dig you, bro - I dig you.

Thanks EVERYONE for the comments. Very important issues on both sides. We cannot separate OURSELVES from the Kingdom of God by the Democrat or Republican title. Neither can we in a sense tell folks "they don't belong" or "You're on the wrong side of God" by using those titles. We need to be very careful with that and remember we're about our FATHER'S business before we're about our "Country's business". It is about bringing people into the Kingdom of God, and not a politcal party.

HOWEVER, I am still sticking to my guns on Christians allowing SERIOUS CHARACTER FLAWS in folks that are running for NATIONAL OFFICE to seemingly go "unnoticed" for the sake of "economic stabilty" as Jeremias said. Maybe I have some growing to do in this area, but my stance remains the same.

You guys don't even want to think about this any other way than you already have so I hesitate to even offer this, but here's a link to a church planter friend in Portland's blog about this same issue from another angle:

Why I'm Thankful for Obama

Look, I think the whole "point me in another direction" statement may have gotten overlooked, so (assumptions aside) I will say this (and wish I could say be done with it, but knowing me, even a dead horse could use a little more beating). I am going to pray for Obama. I'm not going to bash him or protest him like people did with Bush. From here on out all we can do is pray for Obama and hope that he will listen to our cries on the issues we hold dear. I'm tired of talking about this because I see the strain it's putting on people's friendships and that's stupid, but I will find things to be thankful for IN this time. I'm ok with how I voted now and in the past because I think there were things to be thankful for like abstinence education (which was effective) and not being attacked again and I'm not sure Gore or Kerry would have helped with those things. We all know perfection is not a quality any President (or person for that matter) will have and I'm even willing to hope and pray for good change in this new presidency. I just pray that in all of this we don't allow the enemy in the back door while we embrace these economical and healthcare carrots that are dangling in front of us. Let's all stand together now peeps. It's not worth all the strain. Love you all.

I really am grateful for all the posts. I have to say I really don't feel any strain on friendships. Faithful are the wounds of a friend - so if I'm wounded, by a FRIEND, I know my friend's intent is to bring me up to another level. It's to help me to see something that I may be missing- the intent of a FRIEND is never to harm or to hurt in any way. Thank you Pastor Scott for challenging us all.

I did go to the link. Although it did have it's share of bunk, (and read this next word with Simon Cowell's sarcastic British accent): SORRRRRRYYYYYY, I'll tell you what I DID glean from it. When the author said he hoped Mr. Obama's policies work and he is successful, FOR THE SAKE OF THE PEOPLE, I have to admit I was smitten by that. As was stated, the "Right" (present company included) is OFTEN guilty of pointing the finger with the intent of PROVING the left wrong for the sake of being right. If we're honest, that whole attitude isn't helping anyone at all. After thinkiing about it, it's not even biblical. I would often find myself thinking (and saying) "I hope this guy is a bust" just so I could say "I told you so". That's wrong, selfish, and arrogant; I have been guilty of that, and it needs to change.

God can and will use ANYONE. He's proven it in the past, and He will continue to do so. May we all continue to grow!

Yes, I agree with you. Although unfortunately I have seen the strain on relationships this election has caused. Maybe not here, but in others I've spoken to. I have a friend (who's African American) that actually saw the hatred and racism pour through from his boss and from other "friends" of his and it made me really sad to see that he had to disconnect with some of those people over something so trivial. I guess my point is that sometimes friendships can get affected over issues as serious or as trivial (depending on your perspective) as this because it gets one to question people's judgement (regardless of what side of the issues you are on). Some figure well if this is the way they think how can I respect this person? And say, "I can't be friends with someone I don't respect." I just don't want it to get to that point with anyone here, that's all I'm saying. Thank God we can agree to disagree and still have the same respect for one another (hopefully, at least. That goes for me too!). God made some check marks in my spirit about some things and some things I still have to stick to because that's where my heart is. Much love.